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-   -   Lets talk about Paybacks !!!!!!! (http://stripersurf.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9211)

Fish Picker 08-03-2004 10:13 PM

Why is the subject avoided like the pleg ? If one sector goes over on there quota the overage is taken off the following {season} . Why doesn't that apply to both sectors ? Is this not the ultimate in double standards ?

Capt TB what are your thought on this.

Fish Picker 08-03-2004 10:13 PM

Why is the subject avoided like the pleg ? If one sector goes over on there quota the overage is taken off the following {season} . Why doesn't that apply to both sectors ? Is this not the ultimate in double standards ?

Capt TB what are your thought on this.

ragman 08-04-2004 01:32 PM

Fishpicker,
My own uneducated thought is that commercial harvest is more regularly reported than recreational,and as soon as they go over,the door is slammed shut.Reporting for the recs lags behind,and by the time its found,everyone has forgotten about it.I dont really know...

Respectfully Yours 08-04-2004 07:48 PM

Fishpicker.....some subjects are just not talked about in public, (incest, rape and lets not forget recreational paybacks!!)
If you insist on bringing this subject up Jimmy D will have you scrubbing toilets at the OGNA Headquarters!! Oopps, forgot, thats one of the Directors jobs anyway! RY

Fish Picker 08-04-2004 09:37 PM

Is that why this very controversial topic is being avoided ??? Sorry boys It will take more then a letter writing campaign for me to be lose the seat that I hold at OHGNA.

Now why won't this work ??? If it's good for the goose then why not for the gander ????

Please could somebody please discuss this ? Whats the worst that could happen ? Ya lose your seat.

River Rat 08-04-2004 09:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Respectfully Yours:
Fishpicker.....some subjects are just not talked about in public RY <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, some subjects are taboo... Cod...Whiting...gone...wasent me!

Was it you?

I want the truth!

Fish Picker 08-04-2004 10:06 PM

Glad to see ya still read Rat . How are things at the club ??
Sorry but I was directing my post too a group that became totally frightened by a man who struck onto a very sore issue.

But semi related to your only ammo How many pounds of Cod and Whiting did your sector go over this past year ? I know that the Comm sector it monitored very heavily. I read several post on this and other sites stating that the anglers had a great winter with the Cod. BTW did your sector reach it's quota??

Captain Tony Bogan 08-04-2004 11:10 PM

Why is this topic avoided? Where have you guys been for the last year and a half??? This topic started in August of 2002 at the ASMFC. By Spring 2003 Addendum VIII was out. There were public hearings in every state on the eastern seaboard. There were 4 more ASMFC meetings where the Addendum was discussed along with the public.

The simple answer to your question is no, it is not the ultimate in double standards. The commercial sector has what is proclaimed to be the best data out there. You have landings reported daily, compiled weekly and bi-weekly, and have many times the amount of money spent on your data collection as compared to recreationals. The new electronic reporting system being implemented (a mere improvement to the data that is already considered heads and tails above everything else) is larger than the budget for the entire recreational sector for several years (this one time expenditure is greater than several years of our entire budget)

We still do not even have the PRELIMINARY data for May and June of this year, and here we are on August 4. That data will not be finalized (it will continue to change either a lot or a little) until NEXT YEAR before we know what our landings supposedly were.

As I said ad nauseum during this 18 month public debate, give me the same level of data as the commercial sector and I will gladly accept paybacks.

Sorry, but this one is a day late and a dollar short. The payback argument has been aired publicly (hell, I could show you close to a dozen newspaper articles on the subject from last year just from the state of NJ) since 2002, all through 2003 right up to the December 2003 meeting where the Addendum was voted on and shot down, in no small part because of the issues I mention above. I don't mean to be short with you Picker, but to even suggest this is "not talked about" is just ludicrous, it's been beaten to death in the public arena since 2002.

Capt.TB

Respectfully Yours 08-05-2004 06:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Tony Bogan:
it's been beaten to death in the public arena since 2002.

Capt.TB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You forgot one word Capt TB. It's been SUCCESSFULLY beaten to death in the public arena since 2002. RY

Respectfully Yours 08-05-2004 06:33 AM

River Rat , Cod and Whiting are not taboo. You want to talk about them or do you just want me to say that we wiped them out? RY

Fish Picker 08-05-2004 08:36 AM

Capt TB I was under the impression that your sector files FVTR with NMFS. Why can't they use that data after all it is the same data that we provide.

As far as the public "beatin this to death" Damm straight they did it is far easier to point a finger then take responsibility.

How about the great shark killer down here that has been made a hero for bringing in a protected shark. "Long Fin Mako" Nice picture and write up in the paper. If that would have come off one of our decks the cuffs would have been slapped right on us. Instead he is made into a King. Double Standard ya got to agree. The worst part is He tried to sell it. Luckily the dock knew what it was and said no thanks. My next point is if Rec Anglers can sell there catch then why do we waste money on permits???Again another Double Standard ya got to agree !!!

Capt TB My point of this whole thread was to show just how Greed , Money , Ego and Corruption is and has destroyed fishing. How the bigger question is how can we fix it???

River Rat 08-05-2004 10:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Respectfully Yours:
River Rat , Cod and Whiting are not taboo. You want to talk about them or do you just want me to say that we wiped them out? RY <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RY,

You know what I want!

BennyB 08-05-2004 01:13 PM

Mr. River Rat, Is it true that you plunged your hand into a Tuna and snatched out it's still beating heart and then ate it?

If so what was that like?


ragman 08-05-2004 03:30 PM

Benny,
The only way RR would have done something like that is in the bowl of tuna salad at the Yacht Club,and I dont think they leave the heart in there...It was probably a hunk of celery,and when he bit it and it crunched,he felt REAL good! AND THATS THE TRUTH!!!

River Rat 08-05-2004 05:44 PM

Ragman will never know the thrill of the kill on the high seas.

The lawn chair and bucket just dont cut it.



That Tuna fought the good fight and died to feed the many. Bent knows what I'm sayin'

I love thr taste of still beating Tuna hearts in the morning.... tastes like VICTORY!

Fish Picker 08-05-2004 07:55 PM

Rat perhaps I underestimated you have ya ever eaten a mako heart ????

Fish Picker 08-05-2004 07:56 PM

BTW this thread was about Paybacks please lets stay on that topic.

hayswalt 08-05-2004 08:40 PM

What topic? You can't talk about rec paybacks without better, on time numbers- period. If we had better numbers, me thinks the rec industry would be in for a real JOLT- IMHO.

Walt

Captain Tony Bogan 08-05-2004 09:22 PM

Walt, I agree with the first half of your statement, but not the second.

In my opinion real numbers can never hurt us (although I guess you are right that some people will be surprised at the "real" numbers in certain instances)

Fact is if we were, for example, landing far more fish than thought, that is not necessarily a bad thing, for anyone. Know why? because, for example, in a fishery done with VPA, the only way to catch more, if the biomass is still growing, is for more fish to be there. You cannot catch what doesn't exist.

Also, if the fisheries are considered to be recovering or close to recovered, because the biomass numbers are approaching the half way or better mark, and we are actually landing more fish than anticipated, it is a strong argument that the biomass numnbers are underestimated. After all, if we were significantly harvesting beyond what was thought, according to the current numbers we'd be overfishing. If the biomass numbers keep coming back larger and larger than it raises a whole lot of questions about the accuracy of those numbers.

Now would it be all good if we were found to be overharvesting? No, of course not. But I think you get the point.

Fact is real numbers can never hurt. They will either show there is not a problem (or the problem is not as bad as originally thought) or that there is a problem, and now we can fix it, which in the long run helps everyone.

Picker, I am not sure what your response to me and paybacks have to do with each other?

Paybacks for the commercial sector (according to te courts, not me) are specifically designed as a deterrant/punishment. The reason the commercial sector is made to payback is because they have, to a large degree, the ability to adjust their behavior in-season to account for landings that may be approaching or surpassing a yearly or period quota. It was the timliness (and relative accuracy) of those numbers that allowed the courts to justify paybacks.

The recreational sector has no such ability. (see my last post for an example)

What does greed et. al. have to do with that?

Capt.TB

hayswalt 08-06-2004 02:43 AM

Speaking of real numbers, found the following book:

Improving the Collection, Management, and Use of Marine Fisheries Data (2000)

Talk about complicated! It's hard to read, but can be found here:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook/0309070856/html/197.html

BennyB 08-06-2004 11:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by River Rat:
Ragman will never know the thrill of the kill on the high seas.

The lawn chair and bucket just dont cut it.



That Tuna fought the good fight and died to feed the many. Bent knows what I'm sayin'

I love thr taste of still beating Tuna hearts in the morning.... tastes like VICTORY! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the record, that is my cooler behind Mr. Ragman in that picture. The lawnchair is all his. Who can blame a guy for taking a nap after a feast like that though?

Mr. River Rat, you are a Tuna Slayer!!!

It looked like a bloody good time!

captadamnj 08-09-2004 09:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I was under the impression that your sector files FVTR with NMFS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The majority of Rec. fishermen are NOT required to fill them out. And in the party/charterboat sector, only those that hold federal fishing permits (EEZ) fill them out. Even when they are filled out, they are not required to be "postmarked" until the 15th of the following month. By the time they are received and processed, they can already be 2+ months out of date.

BENTROD 08-10-2004 06:40 AM

FISHPICKER,,just wait soon when n.j is found outa complience and all the recs are going to get paid back all right,,, WHEN STRIPED BASS WILL BE AN OPEN TARGET, with no quota or trip limit. it will be one of those things that will be in court for a while all the time well be running the dock outa cardboard..with striped bass..aaaaahhh isnt that a pleasant thought, first thing in the a.m,, maybee my fish dealer will put his arm around my back , AND SAY BENTROD,,, IT IS TIME TO FEED THE WORLD WITH STRIPED BASS

BENTROD 08-10-2004 06:43 AM

and then i would probably say to him.... MR FISH DEALER, are you sure your going to have enough boxs, he would say ,, dont worry about that BENT,,,, more cardboard is ON THE WAY

River Rat 08-10-2004 11:01 AM

Yo Bent,

I got some real nice land I can sell ya cheap in Florida. We can look at it at low tide buddy!

You really think you'll ever sell a Striped Bass in NJ?

I want the truth!

BENTROD 08-10-2004 02:37 PM

RAT,,, i know striped bass is kinda like the cats meow in your book and all the rest of you all,,,, BUT SORRY RAT,,, this has become personal to me... when you all CHOKE ON THE GREED, like whats coming up when you all are found outa complience,,, i want you to be able to sleep better at night just knowing that BENTROD is going on a major KI@@@@@ SP@@@, ONE with an attitude,,,, im even going to buy a brand new bull-line just for this...because when they shut down the recreational striped bass fisherie, and then theres going to be that loophole which enables me to load the boat with stripers... im licking my chops as we speak... i MAKE ONE PROMISE,,,, I WILL DO MY JOB WELL

BENTROD 08-10-2004 02:38 PM

AND THATS THE TRUTH

hayswalt 08-10-2004 03:03 PM

Dream on BentRod- I'll bet you 2 gooses that you'll never be allowed to commercially fish for striped bass in the State of NJ in your lifetime! And, if you do, there's a good chance you'll have to collect from my estate

BENTROD 08-10-2004 03:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HaysWalt:
Dream on BentRod- I'll bet you 2 gooses that you'll never be allowed to commercially fish for striped bass in the State of NJ in your lifetime! And, if you do, there's a good chance you'll have to collect from my estate <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NO WAY WALT,,, were talking MANAGEMENT,,, ha -ha right?YOU ALL ARE OUTA COMPLIENCE VERY SOON,,,,, and here comes the LOOPHOLE.....that loophole is going to drive me to buy a brand new bull-line, AND ALSO BUY SUPERFLY A NEW PAIR OF KORKERS,,,, his old ones are going to have a hole in them on the back -side

Joe 08-10-2004 06:30 PM

Why would Commercial or Recreational fishers want to fish a spiecies to no more. I really don't understand. Sure I feel bad about the Comms being restricted on what they fish, but if it came down to it, I would gladly give up my rights to catch Stripers for as long as it was needed to restablish them. The way this thread is going it almost seems like wiping out the Striper population is an exceptable thing.

superfly 08-10-2004 08:06 PM

Joe, for the likes of Bent it's not an issue. Give them a chance they will wipe everything out from the face of the earth. He proves it consistently with his retarded posts too.

And yes Bent, go get me a new pair of korkers. I need to make sure that the imprint on your rear end will remind you, until your last day, that you have met superfly.

hayswalt 08-10-2004 08:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by superfly:
Joe, for the likes of Bent it's not an issue. Give them a chance they will wipe everything out from the face of the earth. He proves it consistently with his retarded posts too.

And yes Bent, go get me a new pair of korkers. I need to make sure that the imprint on your rear end will remind you, until your last day, that you have met superfly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this case superfly and I are in agreement!

Fish Picker 08-10-2004 08:17 PM

I would like to know one thing. What size twine should I order?

Respectfully Yours 08-10-2004 08:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BENTROD:
that loophole is going to drive me to buy a brand new bull-line <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yikes!!! He wouldn't buy a new bull line for the squid. He wouldn't buy a new bull line for the scup! But now Bentrods threatening to buy a new bull line for the stripers!!! You better watch out Superfly I think Bent's serious this time!!! RY

Respectfully Yours 08-10-2004 09:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Laniewski:
The way this thread is going it almost seems like wiping out the Striper population is an exceptable thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not acceptable Joe....and don't pay too much attention to Superfly and Bentrod trying to piss in eachothers boots! RY

Captain Tony Bogan 08-12-2004 08:19 PM

Bent, you might want to read the information on what happens when a state is found out of compliance by the ASMFC. (or look at what just happened with NY)

You're "taunting" ot "gloating" while immature and funny to read is misplaced. It'll be months before a moratorium is imposed (in which case even if you were allowed to catch stripers right now you'd be shut down along with the rest of us) and only if the bill does not pass the senate before the date (which is weeks to a month after the senate reconvenes)

Nice try though, but next time learn how the process works before making such statements, won't look quite as silly in that case.

Capt.TB


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