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Ask Frank Daignault Frank Daignault is recognized as an authority on surf fishing for striped bass. He is the author of six books and hundreds of magazine articles. Frank is a member of the Outdoor Writers of America and lectures throughout the Northeast.

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Old 04-12-2019, 09:24 AM
Chris Garrity Chris Garrity is offline
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Default The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

I copied this bit from Mistah Smarty from the Report 50s thread.

How do we feel about this? It's a good thing, no? Or are there possible downsides to it?

And here's a corollary that intrigues me: what does this mean for the sport that we all love? Will we get to the point where it's not considered kosher to take a fish home for the table? And will that cause fewer fisherpersons to ply the striper surf?

Please feel free to opine about the changing social mores regarding the killing of fish.
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Old 04-12-2019, 09:49 AM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

" I copied this bit from Mistah Smarty from the Report 50s thread.

How do we feel about this? It's a good thing, no? Or are there possible downsides to it?

And here's a corollary that intrigues me: what does this mean for the sport that we all love? Will we get to the point where it's not considered kosher to take a fish home for the table? And will that cause fewer fisherpersons to ply the striper surf?

Please feel free to opine about the changing social mores regarding the killing of fish
. "

Yes, its a good thing because it protects stripers. On the other hand sport fishermen are entitled to enjoy and use the striper resource within limits. For many, but not all, it has been considered uncool to kill a fish. Ten years ago on the Canal I killed a 35 pounder that many saw and I feared for my own safety. Guys were glowering at me as though I had done something wrong. In any culture if you change one thing other things change because of it. Also, people don't know how to respond to change which will cause some guys to resent a "reduction to possession" while others will consider it a right. This has the potential to create conflict. Never forget that there is a certain amount of extremism in any situation where a difference of opinion could inspire conflict and some cases even violence. Sixty years ago I saw a guy kill a marginal striper and another guy beside him said, "throw that fish back in or your going in!" Not good! Remember that commercial netting of our beloved species is still going on even today.
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Old 04-12-2019, 04:27 PM
Chris Garrity Chris Garrity is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

"For many, it is considered uncool to kill a fish."

I would hate it if that's where fishing ends up. I think everyone here would agree that's it's uncool -- way uncool -- to kill too many fish, but this notion that killing an occasional fish to eat is grossly immoral is something I absolutely despise. Yes, the catch-and-release ethic is good, but there's nothing wrong with eating a fish occasionally.
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Old 04-13-2019, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

My biggest problem has always been with tourneys, where the goal is to just get fish for some trophy, or in some cases, money. I don't have a problem with commercial fishing, but tourneys always seemed like a waste.


But catch and eat being immoral? That's a bad sign if that's where the sport goes. The other extreme is equally bad where the bucket brigade keeps anything and everything that swims, without regard to limits.
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:25 AM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

The sport fishing culture, like any other, suffers from a certain amount of ignorance. Also, people who don't happen to eat fish oppose those who do. They hide behind some ill defined ethic when they simply have no interest in cutting and eating fish. There is a lot of phoney-ness in this issue: people say certain things, especially on the Internet, because it is what they are supposed to say. For instance, in the old commercial days people who never caught anything used to oppose the sale of stripers. Bait fishing we would hear them pontificate about selling bass just before they went to bed while we killers stayed up all night for the money. In the end they won out because the commercial regs in the People's Republic were so immasculated as to render rod and reel sale pointless.

The one I love, when not puking, is the "sport fishermen" who shipped and sold tons of bass taken at Block Island during the moratorium when the rest of us were required to stop striper fishing.

Another is "I don't kill fish", says a certain writer. Then he is pictured in a magazine holding a very dead striper in the same book. Something that should be said in every post is that commercial netting operations are taking tons of legal stripers all over the striper coast. Not that I oppose that; but why are they allowed to kill tons and you or me ONE fish per day?
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

"I have a proposal":

I went to The NOAA website and added up the most important fish species to recreational anglers and their dollar values: Cod, winter flounder, summer flounder (fluke), striped bass, bluefish, haddock, weakfish, blackfish, black sea bass, scup (porgy) and I even threw in "northern puffer" (blowfish). The total was about $65 million dollars in landings for 2017, the last year the data was available. I propose that we (recreational fishermen) pay the draggers and gill netters that $65 million/year for 10 years to NOT FISH in state waters forever. They would have no loss of income and they could continue fishing "offshore", even for those species that they are getting paid for.
(there is a lot more to this but I'm just trying to make a point of the topic in this thread)

When I explained all this to a person who was on The GOM-RAP (acronym for "The Gulf of Maine Recreational Advisory Panel") he was all aboard, saying it sounds like a great idea but when I mentioned that this would effectively make striped bass a gamefish he said "you know I'm in favor of selling stripers?" I asked him would he still want to kill them if he could let them go AND STILL GET PAID FOR THEM? He said he would oppose the proposal because he wanted to kill and sell stripers!

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Old 04-14-2019, 10:53 AM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

I'm not the right person to remark on this because I suffer from disdain for management ideas. They do a lot of off-the-wall things in wildlife management. There is so much over regulation that they are killing public interest. Hunting is on the ropes and, because they are in the process of carrying over hunting policies into sport fishing, the same thing is going to happen to fishing that happened to hunting. People will just leave. Jason, some day your charters are going to have scup tags, tautog tags, bass tags and they will, like with hunting, sell you gamefish one species at a time. Right now with a hunting license all you can have is a squirrel.
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:28 PM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

My wife and I spend the season returning fish then buy a cod fillet at the market. But back when I didn't have a window to throw it out of bring home a fish was important. "Once poor never rich."
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:27 PM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

Always remember that I come from a time when acquisition of food in the wild was a highly respected tradition. As a boy I was taught that it was okay to kill stuff if you took it home and ate it. We even took home road kill because we knew how to check it for freshness. For instance, if you drove past a spot this morning and there was nothing there and this afternoon there is dead turkey laying there. Vavoom! Roast turkey.
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Old 04-24-2019, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

My wife is a meat hunter... the only real justification to fish is to bring home fish for the table, otherwise why bother?

Of course, I don't exactly share the same thoughts, as I enjoy the catch as much as, or more than, the dinner.

But I encounter many who have that cognitive disconnect between what they eat and the process it took to get into their home, regardless of method.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:34 AM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

Ours is a culture in transition. You have the old Guard who learned to feed themselves from the land. Then you have the new order which doesn't want to kill anything. Some of these "vegetarians" won't eat anything unless it comes to them encased in plastic. If you want to see the new order in action, listen to how they feel about hunting some time. The states, even Massachusetts of all places, had to pass hunter harisment laws to keep citizens from vandalizing hunter autos at state forests. There are people out there, while they eat their pork sandwiches, who feel sorry for the animals.
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Old 05-04-2019, 03:13 PM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

"How can you kill an animal?", is how the saying goes. Then the sons-a-bitches have an egg sandwich made up from the unborn young of a chicken. My dentist's office is comprised of a load of these fake vegetarians who require someone else to do their killing for them. I told one office manager, "if you could you would like to take the B out of a BLT."
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

A friend of mine is upset at local hunters who bait for deer in the local woods. He yelled "that's not hunting, that's killing!".... he's upset at them because they hunt too close to the neighborhood, but as much because he has this real disconnect to killing animals by certain means. I always wonder if it's better to eat the meat he does from animals who were raised to be slaughtered, or the "poor" deer that were baited into an area to be harvested? While sitting in a stand by a bait station is not my idea of hunting, ie if I did hunt I would want there to be a bit more skill involved besides the ability to climb in a tree and wait, I can't see the real problem with just culling deer out of our ever increasing population down here either.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:14 PM
Chris Garrity Chris Garrity is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Daignault View Post
"How can you kill an animal?", is how the saying goes. Then the sons-a-bitches have an egg sandwich made up from the unborn young of a chicken. My dentist's office is comprised of a load of these fake vegetarians who require someone else to do their killing for them. I told one office manager, "if you could you would like to take the B out of a BLT."
Believe it or not, there's a positive in there: it's that these coddled people have never known real hunger. If a human animal -- we're animals, remember -- gets hungry enough, he will kill anything that he can get his hands on in order to eat it.
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Old 05-08-2019, 03:45 PM
Francis Daignault Francis Daignault is offline
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Default Re: The kill ethic is in transition, in decline

Hunting is a sport that requires certain skills -- marksmanship, patience, steady nerves. But there are also ethics in hunting and baiting is against the law which carries, state depending, a high penalty, usually including the loss of hunting license. If a hunter takes game ethically in season and takes it home to eat. It is playing by the rules which are endorsed by most governments. In Europe game belongs to the state; in the U.S. on the other hand, game belongs to the people. Our literature commonly says that many Europeans migrated to the states for the right to hunt. There is commonly believed among hunters that hunting serves a primordial instinct handed down through the ages.
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