Arming Teachers?

Francis Daignault · #1 05-02-2019, 03:33 PM

Our regular "neverrude", rightfully suggests that the issue of arming teachers be discussed here. I agree. What are your views. As a former teacher, who has a gun permit, I have a lot to say about this. Members first. Somebody put up that article he posted.

RobS · #2 05-03-2019, 07:04 AM

Some folks have a mental block against this, but given where our society has gone, it makes sense to me, depending on the school. It would seem if they fund armed guards with other security protections there would be less need for the teachers themselves to be armed? But it is absolutely true that if a bad guy knows someone has a gun, there is less likelyhood of an armed confrontation. Many years ago down in Dallas my brother was confronted coming out of a bank one evening, and his threat of shooting the guy (didn't even have to show a gun) backed the guy off due to concealed carry laws down there.

Francis Daignault · #3 05-03-2019, 12:20 PM

Generally, people hate guns and they hate people who have and use guns. If you want to see more of it come to the People's Republic of Massachusetts. Sure, once you get out west a ways the hostility toward gun ownership softens somewhat. but the peaceful use and application of firearms remains highly controversial. It is also tied to political affiliation; and you know how that breaks down. With Democrats the guns have to go. Incidentally, Remington Arms has been sued over the Newtown Conn school slaughter and has just about been ruined financially.

fishinglsister · #4 05-03-2019, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Daignault

Our regular "neverrude", rightfully suggests that the issue of arming teachers be discussed here. I agree. What are your views. As a former teacher, who has a gun permit, I have a lot to say about this. Members first. Somebody put up that article he posted.

If all teachers had guns on them it would make a great "deterrent" for the sicko's that waltz into a school and pick off a bunch of kids.
Undoubtedly, arming teachers would save lives!

SALMONMEISTER · #5 05-03-2019, 06:44 PM

Arm X number of teachers, only the ones who want to be armed, and have them formerly trained by police instructors. As part of their training, they would have to also speak to lawyers/legal people on all that could happen if you had to shoot someone, even if justified. I would think the school would cover any post shooting legal fees.
I've read a couple basic books on armed home defense and they mention that even if you killed someone who was about to use deadly force on you, it could still cost you $10K in legal fees...but that's at home. I'd almost feel like I'd been assaulted by the legal system as well...

Jess · #6 05-04-2019, 06:13 AM

I'm in favor of it providing the right teachers are used.

I've found through the years most teachers are book smart but have zero common sense.
That would be the teacher who would leave a gun out in a location that could be stolen by a student...

The link "neverrude" posted ---> https://www.wptv.com/news/state/flor...armed-teachers

Francis Daignault · #7 05-04-2019, 03:02 PM

I'm not comfortable with generalizations about teachers -- "book smart, zero common sense." Teachers are like any other group in that some have talent and others do not. Becoming a teacher does not make you smart nor does it guarantee common sense.

In any school there are any number of men who already possess firearms savvy; some from the military and others from hunting or target backgrounds. It is from either of those groups that schools could draw their qualified gunmen. Inasmuch as most recreational firearms, with notable exceptions, is practiced by men, no doubt a lot of firearms/equipped teachers would be men. Not seeking gender specificity but that is how it would turn out. Training women for this, in cases where it does not already exist, might be a little too costly and difficult to recruit. The average woman is scared shirtless of firearms so the arming mission could end up lopsided. It is not reasonable to require firearms training for anyone who does not want to have anything to do with it. A lot of people hate guns; otherwise how could society blame the guns when some space cadet goes over the edge? Also, mental incapacity, when it happens to be the cause, is not going to be preventable as was the case in Newtown CT where the guy killed his own mother before raiding the school. I mean, your own mother!

Remember that if a bad guy with a baseball bat gets that gun away from a teacher it could turn into a world of sh**. So the teacher's responsibility in such a situation could be magnified. Thorny.

RobS · #8 05-05-2019, 07:01 AM

"... who already possess firearms savvy"

that is probably the sticking point... just "arming teachers" makes no sense, but allowing appropriate "armed teachers" in school does. And if not properly trained teachers exist, then hiring security officers does. I don't see it as a one-size-fits-all type of issue.

...besides schools, even in our church we now have several former or current police officers who are licensed to carry that are part of a security team due to the current society. The access to firearms by mentally unstable people seems unchecked... and the only possible thing to do is have the ability to stop or limit the damage by someone like this, when/if they go over the edge.

SALMONMEISTER · #9 05-05-2019, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess

I'm in favor of it providing the right teachers are used.

I've found through the years most teachers are book smart but have zero common sense.
That would be the teacher who would leave a gun out in a location that could be stolen by a student...

The link "neverrude" posted ---> https://www.wptv.com/news/state/flor...armed-teachers

"Most"? Hopefully you are looking at a small non representive group when you said that! I know many teachers personally who are versed in several fields. Some started as teachers, some had a few other careers first. Outside of the classroom they have other interests and hobbies that they are passionate about.
Being book smart doesn't necessarily make a good teacher. I know a guy who's had three teachers ask him how to teach, been told to become a teacher, and was asked by a hospital manager in conjunction with a college to run/teach a college curriculum. The guy has a two year associates degree...that he passed with Cs...

Francis Daignault · #10 05-05-2019, 10:47 AM

Remember that if a bad guy gets a teacher's gun the situation could be even worse than what we have now. There is always the chance that an incompetent teacher could be taken over and lose their gun. The armed teacher would have to be chosen carefully. Even then, what guarantee do we have? I know some teachers, were they to carry would end up shooting themselves. All teachers are not necessarily suitable candidates for the "armed protection force". Nor are all certifiers of such armed teachers capable of making the right choices. Then there is the notion of paying a stipend for APF teachers. Politics gets involved so that the educational in-crowd gets the job because of the stipend. You could then end up with ding-dong APFs. All teachers and schools are nothing more than a microchasm of society.

Jess · #11 05-05-2019, 02:41 PM

OK I'll retract my "most" to more then I expected.

neverrude · #12 05-06-2019, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SALMONMEISTER

Arm X number of teachers, only the ones who want to be armed, and have them formerly trained by police instructors. As part of their training, they would have to also speak to lawyers/legal people on all that could happen if you had to shoot someone, even if justified. I would think the school would cover any post shooting legal fees.
I've read a couple basic books on armed home defense and they mention that even if you killed someone who was about to use deadly force on you, it could still cost you $10K in legal fees...but that's at home. I'd almost feel like I'd been assaulted by the legal system as well...

RobS · #13 05-06-2019, 07:05 AM

I would think any legislation arming teachers would also cover the legal protection needed for them, while on the job. Still doesn't exonerate personal liability for going outside the bounds, just like police officers. And a good point is that even the threat of personal liability would keep many or most able teachers away from carrying... at least in the gun-hostile northeast.

Francis Daignault · #14 05-08-2019, 03:58 PM

They would not arm teachers in Massachusetts if the enemy landing force were storming the beaches. No, the Mass negotiators would try to bribe them into going back to their point of origin. Do you agree, comrade?

TonyT · #15 05-08-2019, 06:32 PM

I grew up bringing guns to school.

We'd hunt on the way to school, then back on the way home. Nobody got shot. The guns stayed with the Principal or in your car/truck.

Times have changed for the worse. Kids can't even go hunting anymore. I had a 22lr at 10 years old and 1st 12ga at 13 for my first deer season. I didn't get a deer until I was 14, hunting alone, after the prior season mentored by my Uncle.

Uncle Andy was a stalker, and that is how I learned to hunt. I won't sit in a tree fort to hunt or use bait.